Gutters!

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You can’t hardly see the gutter in this photo

I didn’t think I would do gutters. In some parts of the LHBA world, gutters are a dirty word. The thinking goes like this: with enough roof overhangs – usually 4′ for each story, and 8′ on the gable ends, gutters aren’t needed. I’ve mentioned before that the finished home will have wrap around porches, thus the reason I only have 4 foot overhangs on my two-story house.

I found out about a month ago why, when the wind blows, the rain still comes in – even though I have the roof finished. Mosseyme says without the chinking, the gaps in the logs are big enough that when the wind blows, there’s nothing stopping it from going right through the house. It makes sense if you think about it- wind is forced to go around a solid wall, but it blows right through a fence – therefore, if there is rain along with wind, it’s going to go right through the “fence” (log walls) until I get it chinked.

In my last post, I talked about installing a porch. I even dug some preliminary foundation holes, and then foolishly thought it would stop raining long enough to pour concrete. I was a fool. Sure, last weekend, we had our first full 2 days without rain this year (it’s the middle of February). But when I checked the forecast last weekend, I saw that more rain was predicted this week. And that made me mad. Ok, not mad, just frustrated. I already knew gutters would cost a bit, but they also install pretty fast. So I bit the bullet and bought a bunch of 5″ gutters and the hardware. And some flat black paint because – really – white gutters on a log home look really tacky.

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I hadn’t quite connected two gutters together in this photo. I fixed that. Also note the porch post holes in the ground below…

Preparation

I was surprised at how far spray paint has come in the last few years. The label on the can specifically said, “dries in 10 minutes”. I was thinking, “yeah, right. Maybe ‘tacky in 10 minutes’, but I doubt ‘dry’.” But it was cheap. And it was dry in 10 minutes, just like they said.

A ten foot gutter takes almost an entire can of spray paint. I had 6 gutters and 4 cans of paint, and barely had enough. I didn’t paint the inside or the top edge because the paint will eventually flake off in the rain, and you’ll never see it from the ground.

Pre-install

I researched gutters carefully. I wanted something cheap, yet durable, and with availability for replacement parts. I have done a vinyl gutter on a previous home, and the while the main hardware (gutters) seemed inexpensive at first, I got nickled and dimed to death with the special hangers and foam/plastic connectors.

Having them professionally made is intriguing- they come out with a machine and make the gutters in one piece out of a roll of sheet metal. They are bent into the correct shape by a machine with rollers. But it’s not economical for the guy to come out and make them and then let you install them. And you can’t buy a single gutter in a 60′ length and have it delivered, either. (It’s a great business model, actually….)

I ended up settling on good old fashioned aluminum gutters- light, strong, won’t rust, can be painted, hardware available almost anywhere. Also stupid proof.

Install

I put a nail in the middle roof on the eve board, about an inch down from the shingles. I stretched a mason line from one end of the roof to the other and used a mason string level (it shows declination angles of 1/8″, 1/4″, 3/8″, 1/2″ per one foot of length). I stayed just this side of the 1/8″ per 1′ line, hoping I could get it down to 1/16″ per foot. Then I nailed the blocks described below along this line for the entire length of the roof. This ensured the gutters are slightly angled (not level) so the water will naturally flow towards the downspouts. My mason string bubble with grade markings (the white one below) came in handy:

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My eves are actually on an angle compared to the ground, while the gutter instructions say to make sure you install the gutters so the top edge is parallel to the ground. Since my roof is a 6/12 pitch, this means that I could use blocks with a 30 degree angle to offset and make the gutters level, so I got out the chop saw and nail gun and put up blocks every 2 feet on the eves:

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Also, they say to install downspouts every 30 feet or so. This became a problem because to do this, I would have a downspout right in the middle of the house, and two on each end. I decided against this and came up with finding the middle of the house, and angling the gutters down on both sides from the middle towards the edges. Also, with 8 feet of overhang, there isn’t anything to tie the downspout to right at the corner, so I attached the downspouts near the corners of the log walls. The gutters angle down in a very wide ‘W’ pattern, with the downspouts attached at the bottom of the ‘W’, and the middle and corner of the roof being on the three high points of the ‘W’. You can’t even tell from the ground, since the grade has a slope of about 1/16″ per foot. Over 30′ of gutter on each side of the middle of the roof means the gutters only drop about 1 – 7/8″ over that span. Here’s an exaggerated diagram- red represents the gutters, blue represents water and downspouts, and black represents the logs and the roof. The downspouts ended up being in the outside, rather than the inside corners:

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Unintended and happy consequences are – since the roof already has a bit of a wave in it, adding gutters only help draw attention away from the roof. I can’t tell from the ground anymore that the roof has a bit of a wave in it. It’s the principle of art where the “eye loves a line”.  <- I read that somewhere in a history of mathematics book. Off topic: did you know that straight lines rarely exist in nature? It’s only humans that like (and make) straight lines. In nature, everything twists and turns- there are beautiful spirals and perfect circles, hexagons, elipses, etc., – but no long straight lines.

It was scary installing them with my scaffolding. The scaffolding instructions say to only use it on hard flat surface, but I threw the instructions away. I had to make do with rolling it around in the mud and dirt, which wasn’t always level. A few times I thought the scaffolding was going to tip over just from my using my air nail gun. But it didn’t, and I’m very blessed.

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18 feet tall scaffolding. scary at that height. Oh, and a gutter.

Downspouts

I used self-tapping sheet metal screws to hang the downspouts. Cutting and fitting at that height is a bit challenging, but doable. Eventually, the downspouts will lay on the porch roof. I’d like to attach rain barrels and use that to store water for the dry season at the end of summer.

Next steps

I’m pretty pleased with the results. It rained 2″ after I got them installed. I wasn’t there while it was raining, but came out later and saw where the water had washed out onto the ground. All the logs on that side are completely dry, and I’m pretty tickled about that.

I’ve sanded two outside walls, so they are ready for stain. I’ve sanded almost half the inside walls. I ordered some stain this week, but I need to wait for a few dry days where the overnight temps don’t drop below 40 before I can apply it. Carpenter bee season is in just over a month. If everything works, it’ll be slim pickings for them.

Porch needed

This might be another post where we are getting ahead of ourselves, but I wanted to capture this discussion as well.

The logs are still getting wet. You can see it in this video. This was part of the plan, even after the roof was finished. I was hoping to just finish the roof, move in, and then add the porch. But while filling bee holes, and with the heavy rains we’ve received lately along with wind, I see the bottom layers of logs still getting wet. This is somewhat expected. But they are also getting wet even when there’s no wind. If the rain is heavy enough, it is hitting the ground and splashing up on the logs. Even with 3′ of height from the ground. This is unexpected. There are a few factors I know, and some I recently was informed of:

  1. The roof has such a large surface area (56’x30′ x 2) , that it drains a lot of water. 3′ of height to the first log apparently isn’t enough to stop the splashing.
  2. This is “The South” where we get a lot of water.
  3. It’s a 2 story house. If I was not installing a porch, I would have planned on having 7′ overhangs (3.5′ overhang for every story).
  4. As it is, I have almost 8′ overhangs on the gable, and 4′ overhangs on the eaves. The plan was always to install a porch, so I didn’t see the point of overkilling the roof overhangs (longer rafters = longer sawmill track = bigger trees = more decking, more roofing, more osb, more shingles, etc.), because I knew a wrap-around porch was in our plans. Just not now.
  5. This was new to me, thanks Mosseyme: Without chinking, there is nothing to stop the wind from blowing right throw the house (gaps in logs). Over that 23′ drop (see #3) or so, rain has space for the wind to blow it off course and into the house. Normally,  (Ok, scratch that) I’m learning in the South that nothing is normal, and the weather can do whatever it wants.

So, I’m rethinking the “wait another year + before adding the porch” because the logs are getting wet now, and will be until I get that porch built. But all is not lost. My wife reminded me that we could just build the roof over the porch, and leave decking it until later, which would

  • get the lower logs protected right away
  • save me time on installing the porch decking

I like this idea. With that in mind, I started drawing to answer the question “What should our deck look like?” Here it is:

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Notes on this drawing:

  1. I was originally envisioning the West side of the house in this view. But I realized all four sides would have similar views, just with stairs or the carport. Ahh- the carport- more on that below….
  2. My biggest question is still how do you wrap the porch around the pass logs that stick out at the corners? I don’t know. I assume I’ll have to shave them off. For now, I’m going to build a “West Porch” and an “East Porch”. I’ll build them as far as the corners of the house, and not wrap them around just yet because my gables aren’t framed in. After the E-W porches are built, I’ll frame in the gables. Don’t need the porch getting in the way of my scaffolding and hauling materials up to the gables. After the gables are done, I’ll frame in the North and South Porches and figure out how to wrap the whole porch around the house.
  3. Gutters. I’ll get this out of the way- gutters do help direct all those thousands of gallons of water away from the lower (porch) roof. I’ll route them down the side of the porch beams, and eventually into water barrels for use in the garden or whatever. Yes, it still gets dry in August sometimes.
  4. Roof slope. The main roof is 6:12 pitch. But that doesn’t look right on the porch roof. And there is no hard and fast rule on matching the slopes of two roofs. Normally, the porch roof slopes slightly less than the house roof. I’m going with 3:12, which is pretty flat, I know, but you’ll see why below with the carport…I know 3:12 is below the recommended pitch for shingles, so I’ll have to add “special underlayment” to compensate for the lowered drainage rate.
  5. Carport. We’re tired of getting wet on the way to the house. However, I don’t want the garage attached to the house because fumes. Yes: “because fumes”. So, we need a carport and a detached garage. From my figuring, I need about 10′ of width for each car. But if we keep the carport roof slope the same as the rest of the porch, it would get pretty low before reaching the width needed for 2 cars. Julie had a great solution- park the cars perpendicular to the house- let the headlights face the house instead of parking parallel to it. This means the carport can be 14-17′ long, and we can just make it 30′ wide – enough for 3 cars.
  6. Dimensions:
    1. Porch roof height: about 9 feet, I figure.
    2. depth: 10′
    3. roof overhang: 12′.
    4. deck height vs inside floor: it’ll compare to the inside finished floor height in this manner:
      1. inside floor: 12″ (11.75″) joists, 3/4″ subfloor, 1″ finished floor = 13.25″
      2. outside deck: 10″ (9.75″) joists, 1.5″ decking = 11.25″. Later, we may enclose part of the porch into a large laundry room by adding 3/4″ subfloor, and then 1″ finished floor to bring the height to 13″. Trying to plan ahead….
    5. deck height vs ground: hoping for a deck height below 30″, so I can avoid handrails. Wife might override me on this one….

Here’s a bird’s eye view:

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Notes on this one:

  1. it’s a lot of roof. A lot. But you only live once, right? And we do want to see this thing still standing in 400+ years, right? Ok then. Roof it is.

I’ll let y’all know how it turns out….

Pressure washing

I’d love to say I’m installing the 1st floor, which will mean installing ledger boards around the inside perimeter of the house. But I’m not. They rest on the piers, and are lag screwed to the 1st layer of logs. Two 2×12’s are bolted together and run the length of the inner piers. Floor joists are hung from the ledger boards, and butt into the two 2×12’s – like this:

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Thin vertical lines are joists, thick horizontal lines are the 2×12 sandwich. 90 joists needed.

I need about 90 joists. I’d like to use the “I-Joist” engineered beams because they are stronger than 2×12’s, and they don’t bow. I called around- looks like Discount Builders almost has the best price- $2340. The craigslist “recycled materials” guys say $1500. And $800 shipping, so $2300. I’ll pay $40 extra because Discount has treated me right every step of the way. And they are local.

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Nordic engineered I-Joists

I also asked about just regular 2×12’s, and Discount said that would be $1700. Much cheaper. But again- they bow. And I would really, really like the floor to be perfectly flat, so $2300 seems worth it.

Preparation for the task

Installing the subfloor gives us something for the scaffolding to roll around on so I can (more) easily work on things like electrical, chinking, windows, and frame in the gables- the open triangle on both ends of the house near the roof.

While thinking about it, I realized there are other tasks I should do before this- such as pressure washing the house. I figure it doesn’t make a lot of sense to pressure wash the house after I install the subfloor, since the pressure washing will get the subfloor all wet, so I decided to pressure wash the house before I put the subfloor in. And then since it will be clean, I should borate it. And then probably stain it.

Which means I needed water at the house to connect the pressure washer.

Installing a water line

Which means I needed to dig a trench to install the water line. Luckily, Alabama has no real “frost line”. Code says the water line should be minimum twelve inches below grade. I borrowed my late neighbor’s trencher attachment, and easily got the job done, after sweating and working hard doing about 30 feet with a pick and a trenching shovel. On a side note, the sewer line will have to wait- it has to go down five feet, and the trencher might go two feet, if I work at it. But that can happen later. I got the water trench dug:

Trenching a Water line

I talked to the city, and they recommended 3/4″ PVC pipe for the main. Their connection is 3/4″. Seemed to make sense, so I installed 200 feet of 3/4″ PVC for about $60 and got the water line up to the house. Then I talked to my fellow LHBA friends, who informed me I’d never be happy with 3/4″- and I should go with 1″ or larger. You wouldn’t believe the amount of math that goes into determining what size of water line to install. I went to Lowe’s and bumped into a plumber who worked there and told him my dilemma.

He said, “no, 3/4″ will be fine, it’ll be fine, don’t worry about it.  How many bathrooms did you say you had?”

“Three.”

“Three, huh…..Ok….well…….maybe you should put in one inch pipe….”

I guess the theory is that even though the flow is constricted to 3/4″ at the road, the fact that I’m 200 feet from that connection means the line has time to build up pressure over a long enough run, so a larger size pipe can be used. I ended up ripping it out and replacing it with a larger pipe. I can still use the 200 feet of 3/4″ to reach the back of the property, I guess. The goal is, after all, to turn the whole thing into a small farm, so….

I stuck a faucet on the house. And one by the blueberries, just because. I’m not sure why I think it’s amazing to drink out of a faucet next to the house, but I’m tickled that I can now do this.

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Started pressure washing the house

And then I decided instead of borrowing a pressure washer, I should buy one- it’s going to get a lot of use. Craigslist to the rescue….

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I broke the “new” pressure washer after using it for 3 days- I didn’t notice when I bought it that it was missing one of three bolts on the pump head intake manifold. Bolt #2 broke while using it the other day, and water game gushing out of the thing. When I looked closer, the 3rd bolt had sheared off years ago. I bought an “easy out” bit and drilled the sheared bolt out of the hole. Then I replaced with new bolts, refilled the water pump with the recommended gear oil, and tested it at home. Seems to work pretty well.

I think we’re going to need to stain the house – we like this straw-yellow color we discovered under the sun-bleached gray logs, but it will eventually fade if we don’t protect it.

Water based or oil based stain? I was guessing oil was probably better, but it stinks forever, and smells are something we just don’t want. But then I talked to several suppliers of both types, and all of them agree- water based stains have come a long way, they don’t stink; they are better for the environment, clean up easier and are similar in cost.  I’m sure we could have a lively debate between which is really better, but it comes down to the smell for us, and ease of clean up.

We looked into it- looks like a 5 gallon bucket will run us about $260, and will cover just the outside of one wall. Protecting the outside of the house is going to run us around $1000. Wow!

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Next steps

The weather has been hot and dry- perfect for pressure washing. I can’t imagine pressure washing while soaking wet in January. Shiver! The cool thing is that the other day, it was 95+ degrees, but I was actually cold working inside spraying. I came out of the cabin to take a break- and noticed the temperature went up about 10 degrees. Even with all the air gaps, the inside of this thing is much cooler than outside.

Hopefully, this heat wave will hold out long enough for me to get done pressure washing and then sanding, and then cool off some so we can start staining, but not freeze. And then we’ll either do some chinking or get the 1st floor installed. Haven’t decided if rain is blowing in from the outside through the cracks yet.

Roof – Part 3: Installing almost everything on the roof

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roof box frame. Eventually, I’ll remove that errant little scrap of 2×10 nailed to the rafters.
box frame for insulation almost complete

The shingle elevator was made out of wood, and it broke after the week of rain weakened it. So I welded a new one. It works better, but I’m worried about the rails it rides, which are 22 foot long 2×10’s.

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New lift can be bolted onto the rails.
I’ve made a lot of progress on the roof- the frame is complete, the insulation is completely installed on both sides. I had to stop and measure how much insulation I had left- and use the hot wire foam cutter to cut the 9″ thick pieces down to size – they were too thick to fit in the boxes. Also, I had plenty of 5″ thick pieces, but not enough 7.5″ pieces. I found that 7.5″ is the sweet spot- the foam has a stated R-value of 4.6 per inch, so a 7.5 inch thick layer gets me R34.5, where only R30 is required. This doesn’t count the value of the 2″ thick decking, or the plywood, or the underlayment, which doesn’t add much, but does add some. To make the 7.5″ thick foam, I set the wire at 7.5″ above the cutting deck, then stacked two 5.5″ pieces on top of each other and fed them through the foam cutter to make a 7.5″ stack. I have enough foam left over for a very well insulated chicken coop.

Some folks have spent thousands on their insulation- even when buying used. I was able to get away with $400 for all the foam I could stuff into a huge U-haul van and my trailer pulled behind. Extremely cheap!

Problems

2x lumber isn’t what it says it is….

I wish I had thought more about the fact that a 2×10 and  2×8 were really 1 1/2×9 1/4 and 1 1/2×7 1/4, because that threw off some of my measurements. See, the ribs are 2×10’s, spaced 48″ OC apart. But the plywood is only rated to span 24″, so I needed a support between the 2×10’s. I didn’t want to just space  the 2×10 ribs at 24″ because that messes up my 48″ foam, and a 2×4 is a lot cheaper than a 2×10 no matter how you slice it. Besides, a solid piece of foam is a better insulator than a skinny 24″ strip of foam- that’s just simple physics.

Anyway, I planned to just put an 8′ long 2×4 between the 2×10 ribs, on top of the 2×8’s as a support, because the height of a 2×8 cross member + a 2×4 = height of a 2×10, right? wrong. There’s a 2″ vertical gap between the 2×8 & the 2×10, but the 8′ 2×4 laying on top of the 2×8 cross member is only 1 1/2″ thick, so there was a 1/2″ gap I had to fill between the top of the crossmember and the top of the 2×10 rib. I admit I actually couldn’t figure out at first why my plywood was sagging in the middle between the ribs. Oops.

Getting everything on the roof

Yes, this continues to be a problem. There are multiple solutions, but the main thing to remember is to keep the main thing (building the roof) the main thing. It’s easy to dream about a jib crane or some contraption with a winch motor that lifts everything up on the roof at the push of a button, but at the end of the day, the question isn’t “how did you do it?” as much as it’s “Did you do it?”. Sigh…..Up and down the ladder.

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I would have used the shingle elevator, but it is on the opposite side of the house. Besides, I only needed 5 sheets for this part.
I figured out that I can lift four sheets of foam at a time with just a rope. So that helps. But the plywood is dangerously unwieldy, so I could only manage 5 sheets at a time using the elevator, or in the photo above, one at a time. In this case, it saved me carrying it from the elevator, up over the peak, and then down to be installed. You do what you have to do to get it done.

And the 2x lumber- well, I can lift about 30 of those at a time with the elevator, so that’s nice.

Nevertheless, I do have backup plans for a jib crane to lift shingles in case the shingle elevator goes kaput.

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The ribs, foam, OSB, and you can just barely see the 2×4 spacers sticking out under the OSB.

Solutions

I added a 1/2″ x 1″ spacer to the 2×8 to lift the 2×4 up to the correct height. And on the boxes I hadn’t finished, I went ahead and lifted the 2×8 so that when I added the 2×4, it would be level with the 2×10. If I ever do this again…..

Using my Magnesium oil almost daily to stop the aches and pains of going up and down the ladder. It’s amazing stuff- helps the muscles heal, and protects joints.

I’ve used the car to run the elevator- just tie a rope to the front of the car, the other end goes to the pulley attached to the lift. Then back up, and everything goes up. Once it’s at the top of the lift, I climb the ladder and unload the supplies onto the roof. I carried almost every 4×8 sheet from the West side of the roof, up over the peak of the roof, and then down onto the East side of the roof. That was no fun, especially when it was a bit breezy.

I’m not sure how lifting shingles will end up- they are pretty heavy – about 60 lbs for each bundle. There are 99 of them…

Vent holes

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I cut these in the roof to enable cool air from the ground to flow up the side of the house, into the roof, and out the peak. I made a template out of a scrap of T&G decking, then cut rectangular holes and covered them with heavy duty screen door mesh plus 1/4″ wire mesh. Here’s a video describing the theory of ventilation.

…And a change in roof design

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When looking at the roof from the ground, you don’t see the built-up part of the roof, at least from the front of the home. This makes the roof look thin and wimpy.

As an aside, I’ve several folks pull up and ask about the house, and if they ask about the roof and the T&G decking, they always assume I used 1×6 planks. They are always surprised when I show them a scrap and they find it’s actually 2×6 planks. I get about one visitor a week that actually pulls up and wants to ask questions, while I get a half dozen gawkers who stop in the road to take a look or a photo. I’m always happy to answer questions- to me, the LHBA method is the best method for getting a really cheap house that has tons of value.

The last one that pulled up really made me think about this- yes it’s vain to build up the whole roof just for looks. On the other hand, the whole thing is probably vain, if you want to take a minimalist view- I mean, I could have just plopped a mobile home on the property and said, “done”, right? But let’s stay focused here- I started looking at the roof, and decided they were right. I asked my wife about it, and she immediately said, “I’ve always wanted the whole roof to be thick.” She knew the whole time, but just didn’t want to make an issue out of it. Yes, I can usually finish the maze a few seconds behind the rats….

“It’ll be a lot more work,” I said.

“I know.”

“And a bit more expensive – like $500 more.”

“I know.”

She doesn’t want to pull up and look at the wimpy roof and hate it every time she comes home. I agree.

It also simplifies the drip edge and other issues I was having with making nice clean looking roof lines.

So….I ordered more lumber, plywood, tar paper, etc. Don’t need any more shingles, luckily.

More problems

When I added the extra 2×10’s to the roof, I found that the roof decking isn’t exactly flat. Big surprise? No, not surprised. I’m actually surprised that the gap was 2″ or less. Probably due to my 5×12 rafters not being perfect or something.  Anyway, to stop the critters from getting in there and make it look purdy, my wife gave me an idea – “why not put a piece of angled metal up there and screw the 2×10 to it, and then screw it to the deck?” It was a great idea, in fact:

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That’s all for now…Next up: I’ll finish shingling the roof.